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Pleasure is the best we know while psychological suffering is still in place, and we misidentify pain as the cause of our unhappiness, and so we project this onto the afterlife, where we are awarded happiness through sustained pleasure ("bliss") or unhappiness through sustained pain (flames and all)
Once we come to recognize that our happiness (if and when life brings it about) is just the absence of psychological unhappiness (guilt, blame, pride, worry, expectation), meaning happiness is peace of mind even in the face of pain, the idea of experiencing a purely pleasant afterlife becomes a lot less relevant
Thank you for your response JGC, I find it reassuring that the modern concept of hell is the most extreme of several ideas, but also missing the point- Hell is the eternal absence of God. However, I also find it interesting some believe in redemption and one day all will come to God or that hell is temporary.
I'm also curious about Matthew 25:31-46. Gray has read before a common argument against why being a good person isn't "good enough" and yet here being a good person is clearly defined. This was another insecurity Gray expressed, and I would like to explore this train of thought.
Lisa, what I find curious was one Christian Gray spoke with through a religious chat service was very obsessed with the afterlife. I have not developed an opinion over which should be more important- preparing for the afterlife or enjoying the moment- however I can say Gray aligns more with the latter.
Gray has read before a common argument against why being a good person isn't "good enough" and yet here being a good person is clearly defined.
This is why I find Christianity so toxic(edited)
5:12 AM
It reinforces the psychological concept that there is a way to not be good enough
5:13 AM
It reinforces the psychological identity that compares itself to a fictional story of what it could and should have done differently in the past, and what it needs to accomplish in the future
Guilt and shame over my actions that delivered pain (not recognizing that they happened through me by God's will)
Blame and hatred over another's actions that delivered pain (not recognizing that they happened through them by God's will)
Pride and arrogance over my actions that delivered pleasure (not recognizing that they happened through me by God's will)
Worry and anxiety over imagined painful future circumstance (not recognizing that pain cannot attack what I am)
Expectation for and attachment to imagined pleasant future circumstance (not recognizing that pleasure cannot add to what I am)(edited)
5:23 AM
When God/life dissolves this attitude, there is no more worry about pain or expectation for pleasure (before or after death)(edited)
No more guilt over being insufficient in God's eyes
5:39 AM
Chrome @A long kiss goodnight
5:41 AM
One way to put it is that I feel Christianity actually doesn't give God enough credit
5:41 AM
This sort of belief that humans could go against God's will
5:45 AM
In fact, when I intuited this around age 16 (I found out my uncle was homosexual and was expelled from Jehovah's Witnesses based on bible scripture, I wondered "why would God punish someone for something they didn't choose?") is when I started to lose my Christian faith
I see. And curiously, Gray's argument is very similar. How could God be a loving God if God forces others to be toxic towards others.
The only escape is God doesn't control the will others. The thinking that God knew all along also doesn't quite work because that would imply God is fine with the events that do occur. Is God loving or neglectful, at least on Earth?
I personally dislike the idea of anyone being punished or considered sinful over something like being gay. Assuming sex inside of marriage is valid, why are gay people an exception and invalid by default? Gay people are just as capable of practicing abstinence and marrying as straight people.
I see this as the sort of human corruption made to promote social ideas, in this case discrimination.
2:44 PM
I am curious about your idea of God not being given enough credit. The core of faith is He protects your free will, and if that wasn't the case I believe the religion would fall apart.
2:45 PM
And there is hell and heaven? I'm afraid there are too many contrradictions.
Why do I want to believe in a God that will judge me for not believing in Him but is totally cool with letting monsters into heaven? I feel like the people who bend the rules but still believe in God are the people God wants, and that's not a crowd I want to spend eternity with.
The other problem is there's also this idea that you were already saved and God will only forgive you if you believe in Him. I don't think that's how relationships work?
Either the heaven/hell thing is garbage, or- bleh.
I guess the idea of a God that promises love but doesn't seem to do much loving for others bothers me the most. Almost like the irony of unconditional love- If you love everything and everyone, including all of the bad people do in life like murder, are you actually loving at that point?
By "not being given enough credit", I mean exactly what you said, the assumption that God isn't fine with the events that occur. The assumption that painful actions go against God's will while pleasant actions comply with it. Assuming that God thinks pain is invalid even though life will always be a mix of pleasure and pain
But yeah basically as I said earlier - unhappiness as a result of believing that a human's free will could ever be different from God's will. A lack of recognition that everything that happens in life unfolds through destiny. Not giving God enough credit
I'm much more attracted to the idea of Gaia and something I made up. Souls are everywhere, and when a soul wants a new body it's looking for a specific experience. And then after the body dies, the soul goes through this cycle until it's content.
If heaven and hell are real, I like to believe demons and angels reincarnate back into people and everything else. Even a higher power is just a big blob of soul, Gaia themself being a giant soul clump
I don't really believe in metaphysical concepts like that anymore (ironically I guess since I've taken over this channel :p) but I like that concept, because I agree that the "point" or meaning of life is to experience it. After conception, we're continuously moved and shaped and lived by life/God, but we do have a feeling of free will. We were meant to experience life as this human being. Our conscious experience of being this human is all we'll ever know (permanent pleasure/pain in the afterlife notwithstanding)
3:08 PM
And while I don't believe in these concepts of souls and rebirth anymore, I do think it's possible that that's how it works (but we certainly can't know if it does)
Yeah. Death could be the simple act of no longer existing, and nothing else happens for the human. Kind of like turning a computer off and throwing it in the trash
Just to reiterate my main point - happiness in this life is available/possible, and it's really just the falling away of a delusion that human beings could ever act against God's will
One time I thought about not existing in the afterlife and was surprised to find a fear of death I never recalled feeling before. Although in retrospect, I go inactive and I have dreams I don't remember, so I should already know what death is like?
3:12 PM
The one caveot to inactivity is the brain still simulates me, my hardware is there but my processor is on sleep mode
Yeah. Occam's razor would suggest that death isn't any different from deep sleep. Years before I got into these non-dual concepts, someone at a psychology seminar said something I strongly vibed with: "Why be afraid of death unless you're also afraid of what was before you were born?"
My spiritual teacher likes to say, happiness is the end of our attitude towards pleasure and pain. Death is the end of our experience of pleasure and pain
and it isn't about my opinion, it is that I have things to do and I can't do them if I'm dead. I didn't have anything to do before I was born, so it didn't matter that I was dead
I don't look forward to death because I have stuff I still want to do with my life. However, even though I used to be suicidal I don't want to fear death. I don't think it's healthy, especially when I (hopefully) get old
Breloo, this sense of "I have things that I need to accomplish" is a part of this attitude that life needs to unfold a certain way. An expectation that life is only valid if it unfolds as I imagined
That's the other promise I made- no intentional self-harm. If I'm stupid and accidentally kill myself, that's different. Although I don't want to make those sort of risks
all possibilities are valid, but not all of them are good. if I don't let myself get invested in results then I won't get interested or engaged in life
3:24 PM
life will go how it goes, but I still want life to go in a certain few directions
That's an assumption most people have, but if you actually talk with people who report an experience in which the psychological resistance has dissolved, they describe that if anything, they are more interested/curious to engage with life than when they were still attached to outcomes
It makes sense to me some people are like that. However, I think there's also the crowd who think they have no control and then make no effort to commit to responsibilities.
3:27 PM
Or feel depressed
3:28 PM
Almost like self-induced depersonalization now that I think about it
Yeah that's another common assumption, that recognizing you're not in control of what happens through you means that you'll start acting irresponsibly. But it's not like this recognition will change your personality to the point that you lose your compassion etc
3:31 PM
When your addiction to pleasure falls away, there is really no reason to intentionally inflict pain on others for your personal gain
It really doesn't require more, though. You always contribute to the world whether your actions cause pleasure or pain. The belief that there are any requirements in order for your life to be valid/acceptable/sufficient in God's eyes is the very source of our psychological resistance to life unfolding
3:36 PM
(Love these convos btw, lol)
3:37 PM
As AZ suggested, when a lion slaughters a zebra, is the lion not contributing to the world? Is the lion going against God's plan because it inflicts pain?
I don't care what god thinks. I don't want to just make myself happy, I want to make everyone happier, and that means that sometimes I have to go out of my way or do something that doesn't make me as happy as I could be. maybe if everyone stopped inflicting pain on others then it would be enough to just not hurt people, but that isn't the case
We're all programmed by evolution (not literally), all that matters is that we survive to reproduce or (as social creatures) contribute to bettering some larger organism. We care about the well being of others because we are tenants/builders/parts of a larger body and that care for others contributes to the strength of our whole.
It's certainly a noble idea, but it's still based on the notion that anyone's happiness is the result of pleasure, and that I will add to other people's happiness by giving them pleasure
3:42 PM
And yeah, exactly, the world you want to exist. An imagined ideal world with maximal pleasure and minimal pain for everyone
no it doesn't. this whole "give up on expectations to achieve true happiness" thing isn't so easy when you are spending a lot of your time worrying about if you can get enough food for yourself and your family to eat, or trying to avoid the people who want to kill you
For sure, and nowhere is there any prescription in these concepts that says "give up on your expectations" because this is not something you can achieve. And yeah, when your life circumstance is mostly painful, peace of mind usually isn't a concern
3:50 PM
(When I say "it's not something you can achieve", I don't mean it's unachievable. Rather that if it happens, it's as an automatic result of life gradually changing our perspective)
3:54 PM
Part of the irony is that we are designed to prefer pleasure over pain (that's kind of the definition of pleasure and pain in the first place). Even when there is no expectation that anyone's happiness/completeness is dependent on pleasure over pain, we're still always going to act in a way that brings about pleasure instead of pain (including for other people if we're designed to be compassionate, which most of us are)
3:56 PM
The psychological attitude of guilt/blame/worry/expectation really isn't necessary for the sake of living "responsibly" (by which we really mean, causing pleasure rather than pain)
3:57 PM
But it looks like I'm talking to myself again at this point... :D
If I were to offer you some criticism by which you might adjust your statements/outlook on a lot of this, I feel like your "expectations/idea that you have control causes pain/suffering" is used a bit too broadly in your modeling of the world/psychology. I feel like it's a valuable tool that does apply well to a lot of situations, but that you'd also do well to diversify and build more models/understanding into that outlook/into the way you talk about things. It feels like a "if you have a hammer everything else is nails" situation, and you're seeing nails where they may not necessarily be there.
Could you go into a little more detail about when this perspective doesn't apply in your opinion?
4:27 PM
As far as my experience goes, life circumstance is always either pleasant or painful, but my (un)happiness is completely unrelated to circumstance. This conceptual framework really just shone a light on that like, "ohhh this is the best explanation of that"
Imagine a person in a situation that is causing them harm and they are suffering as a result. You may be able to talk about how their suffering is as a result of their expectations of control, but in such a situation it is more appropriate for them to "take control" and change their environment/situation such that it's no longer causing them harm.
4:28 PM
A lot of situations allow you to do that, but there are times where you cannot, and that's when this sort of view is more appropriate
I agree. The caveat of course being that their suffering isn't caused by their pain, but yes, taking action is often required to circumvent pain (and nowhere do I suggest that you shouldn't try to maximize pleasure or minimize pain)
My point is not to say that the model you've got here is necessarily flawed or wrong, but that it would do you well to diversify on it/take advantage of other models and systems of understanding as well. All models are flawed, all models are useful. Limit yourself to one/focus on one too much and you limit your understanding/application and your responses to situations/opinions on situations become a bit too predictable/single-handed.
I understand what you mean, and trust me I went through a lot of models until this one clicked :) I agree that all models are flawed, but as far as the limits of language go, I deeply feel that this one is as good as it gets, based on my own experience and that of my teachers who came up with it based on their own psychological resistance dissolving completely
4:36 PM
I try to be sort of flexible with the wording too depending on who I'm talking to - for instance some people don't respond well to the ideas of destiny/God's will, so I'll say genes and conditioning instead :p
4:38 PM
But I don't really cling to these concepts too tightly. I think this verbal description is extremely useful in bringing about an understanding, but at some point it becomes something that is much more experiential/felt
4:39 PM
I can feel when the psychological resistance kicks in without having to put labels on it anymore
4:44 PM
The more you see/feel it in action, the more it's recognized (experientially, not just conceptually) as being based on a flawed perspective that overrates the importance of pleasure/pain in regards to our sense of contentment. I know it can sound sort of unlikely until you've had certain shifts in perspective yourself, but I promise it's not just talk :D
4:44 PM
Anyway I better start working :p Clocked in 15 mins ago, lol
On the rest of it, I won't argue too much with you there, because there's not a ton I can really say of value beyond what I've already said. It's good to see your point of view.
Just to restate the point that this not intended as a suggestion for how to live your life. I know it can be easily misunderstood as "stop seeking pleasure!" or "stop blaming people!" but it's really just intended as a description of a change in perspective that can happen if life feeds us enough information. If anything, any concepts you hold on to that tell you how you should live your life are likely to contribute to your unhappiness
